Prepare to Get Your Grey Matter Moving
Articles/topics I’m working on after reading the questions/comments from those responding to Jesus Needs New PR’s response to Piper:
Unique callings in Christ
Putting women in a box/dictating their roles
Proverbs 31 woman being a “career” woman
Guilt
Old fashioned to expect women to stay home
“Have to work”
No biblical family model in scripture
No good at being a homemaker
What happens while single
Multiple wives
Sarah Palin hypocrisy
Being purchased and owned by our husbands
Marry our rapists
Remain silent in the church
Cover our heads
Matthew (and those with a more “liberal” theology) inspire and challenge me (they always get my grey matter moving!). :)
so interesting to see the comments on his post and the comments on yours. I am currently reading Voddie Baucham's book "Family Driven Faith" and I feel the idea of homemaking is ever present right now in theologically sound circles… a call to return to the family.. To our husbands…To our children. It can rub many wrong, and challenge and stretch us to step outside the culturally accepted "norm" and shift back to a biblical worldview.
oooh….I'm excited to read the articles you are working on. I posted Piper's video clip on my blog…loved it. Well said without condemnation. These ladies aren't so much rejecting God's perfect design…they don't know what it is and when it goes against everything they've ever believed to be true…it hits hard. I'm praying for the hearts of women to be softened and tuned into what Jesus has for all of us as far as motherhood. Enjoy your blog so very much. Jennifer
WOW !!! I am looking forward to those posts!
I also posted a response on my blog to Matthews post,
http://www.thewardrobeandthewhitetree.com/2010/06…
I however don't tow a hard line an what is best for all Christian women, I have friends that do, and good for them, but I do believe not every female is put in the same box, even if we love our box and want others to love it too.
Sounds good and very thought-provoking!! Praying for you, Sarah Mae as you work on these posts!!!
Well I'm looking forward to seeing your response, I was one of the women who posed the question what about the single ladies? How does Piper's perspective fit for us?
Looking forward to your posts!
I'm definitely looking forward to seeing those posts.
looking forward to seeing what you have to say…
while i am not of the "liberal" theology (i have friends who are and i can say I am NOT), i'm interested to see what you BOTH have to say.
still just so tough for me to get out of the working mindset as that is what i've been my whole life.
Julia – you are a wise woman wanting to hear different perspectives as you seek the truth…love you!
Ok, here we go…
Let me start by saying that I love Sarah. I've been following her for a long time and while we don't agree on much I certainly believe that we agree on what is important. And she has always shown respect even when we disagree, something I appreciate.
So, this comment is not directed to Sarah (she already knows where I stand on this issue anyway). This comment is in response to two specific statements made by fellow commenters. Two comments that I believe are so arrogant and condescending they shouldn't be left unrefuted.
Mama Llama writes.. "I feel the idea of homemaking is ever present right now in theologically sound circles" and "step outside the culturally accepted “norm” and shift back to a biblical worldview".
Let me take the last one first. What "biblical worldview" are you referring to exactly? I'm familiar with scriptures that address wives being submissive and caring for the home but am completely unaware of any passages that command women not hold paid employment. While you suggest that we are viewing our work outside of the home through a culturally normative lens I would counter that with the argument that the traditional family you're speaking of is more a product of urbanization and industrialization than biblical influence. Biblical family structure would have had both a mom AND dad working at home. The dad would have farmed or worked a trade and the sons would have apprecitenced under him in it. To suggest we return to a biblical world view would suggest that we return to THAT not June and Ward Cleaver. When we take the word "biblical" out of the equation it becomes a matter of opinion not a biblical command. And mine is just as valid as yours. The bible certainly holds timeless truths and commands. This isn't one of them.
Secondly, what do you mean by "theologically sound circles"? And do you realize how arrogant that sounds? While I'm sure my position is considered "liberal" (which is laughable if you actually knew me) I'm quite sure that neither you, nor I, are the final word on scriptural interruption. Because my "theological circle" doesn't look down on working mom's doesn't make it less sound than anyone else's. It simply means that we have a difference of opinion. To question my, or other less conservative Christians soundness, is both offensive and condescending.
And my final thought is for commenter Jennifer Kindle. You wrote "These ladies aren’t so much rejecting God’s perfect design…they don’t know what it is and when it goes against everything they’ve ever believed to be true".
What in the world does than mean? It sounds like you're suggesting that women who work out of the home are too stupid to know that they are living outside of God's will. I certainly hope that isn't true. And if it is let me assure you that a). I can read and b). I've exercised that ability reading the same bible as you. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps God's desire for you to be at home with your family and His leading you and your husband in that decision is His design for YOU and YOUR family? Or that His design for me and my family could be different? And finally, did it ever occur to you that I, like many Christian moms who work, have made this decision for our family after much prayer, meditation, reassurance and confirmation from God?
Let me close this ever so lengthy comment by saying that all of the hints, on this blog and others, that my decision to work is blaspheming God or maligning His Word makes me sad. I would think that as a body in Christ we'd be better than that.
P.S. Sarah, I still love you. And if you decide to unfollow me…. well, I understand ;)
Nicole – I would NEVER unfollow you! I think you are intelligent and authentic – I welcome your disagreement and challenges!
Oh, and just to be clear, I don't think being a homemaker means you can't hold paid employment. I also do not advocate our standard as being June and Ward Cleaver. I think there is a common misconception (which we must perpetuate to our dismay) that being a homemaker literally means doing nothing but cleaning and cooking, not being educated, or not working in some capacity (although those that only clean and cook, that's fine and beautiful as well). Further more (I just really wanted to say 'further more' and this made a good segway) I know we live in a complicated sin-saturated world where black and white don't always fit…and some women need to work. Yea, I really don't even need to follow that statement up.
Thanks for commenting!!!! MUAH! (was that kiss to Beth Moore for you?) ;)
Slightly unrelated but not at all — it concerns me when a writer says "Paul had great advice but it didn't come from experience" because that, to me, seems to imply Paul's words weren't God breathed and a part of an inerrant bible. On that same note, I noticed in his commenters a lot of "the bible is really allegory, don't take things literally" type of thought, which is not truth, imho.
To Think…I thought the exact same thing about the comment about Paul. Also, I agree with about how most of the commenter's seemed to completely disregard biblical authority.
On another note, lovely to see your face here! :)
Nicole– I apologize if my words offended you. In regards to my statement "challenge and stretch us to step outside the culturally accepted “norm” and shift back to a biblical worldview" I refer to my very life. I personally am being stretched to think out side what the cultural norm is…even what the norm is for the everday Christian. I did not say or intend that the Biblical Worldview was for every woman to stay at home and never work. Nor did I say that working was a sin for a woman. I am challenged personally to consider my own involvements and commitments, and ask my self… is this God's ultimate call for me? Is being super involved at the church really the best? or is ministering to my husband and family enough? For me, I think even in Christian circles I feel so many people think being a wife and mother aren't enough. I must be Choir director, children's ministry director, lead the ladies' Bible Study, etc in order to be successful, influential, make a difference. I feel this struggle.
I am challenged lately to ask myself… why don't I believe that my role as wife and mom are enough? The secularist worldview does put an expectation on women to go to college, get a higher education even beyond bachelors, try to be as equal or far surpass male peers, make as or more money, etc…. this goes against MUCH of Biblical principles. What kind of crazy woman would i be if I said my greatest goal was to raise my daughter to be a Godly woman who loved God, her husband and her family…what if that meant she never went to college?? everyone has a worldview… it is either inline with the Bible or not. Many worldviews would think a woman not going to college is rediculous and ignorant. But my main goal is not to have smart educated well paid children. It is to have children who grow to love and worship God.
On the subject of worldview— I mention above that everyone has a worldview. A Biblical Worldview is not necessarily Bibilcal command, however it lines up with Biblical principles. I think we would all agree that a wife/mom working out of the home in the garden/farm, running a sewing business,etc is vastly different from a woman who sits behind a desk all day long…. not saying the latter is sinful or wrong. Just saying we all know the vast difference.
In regards to "theologically sound circles" — yes, many Christians love God yet their theology is not totally sound. Do I think my theology is perfect? far from it. However, I long to sit under men who will proclaim the Word of God boldly and call me to live a radical Gospel-filled life. And there are many of denominations and churches and pastors who won't. So while I will not apologize for using the term "theologically sound circles"… for there are those that are simply theologically sound in there view of Scripture and those that are not.
I not once said anyone was in sin or wrong… so I do apologize if I came across as arrogant or prideful. I am just extremely encouraged by this focus I see coming out of many churches/pastors. Years ago it was a call to care for the poor and mercy ministry– not a new concept, but a forgotten one. I feel the call to homemaking and family ministry/faith is a focus as of late and I am thrilled to see it!
I will be interested in reading your posts on this, but I have to applaud Nicole for her comment. I certainly do not have a "liberal" theology at all. Not even close. But the comments she cited hurt my heart. I just want to see more grace in the body of Christ and calling working mothers out as "not living up to God's ideal" is not speaking with grace. It's one thing to ignore sin in a watered down gospel…I'm certainly not advocating that. It's another thing to call something sin that just isn't called that in scripture.
MainlineMom – yes, I agree, much grace – we are human and so full of mess so often! I would like to say that it *is* possible that working outside the home in a "for real" job is a sin…I honestly am fleshing my thoughts on this out, but the end of Titus 2: 4,5 tells us why women are to be homemakers…"so we don't blaspheme (or discredit) the Word of God. Wow. That is powerful.
I'm not denying Titus 2, but I think the definition of what "working at home" means is up for discussion and needs to be considered somewhat in cultural context (not that it isn't relevant to us, but much like Paul's words on slavery, the cultural context is radically different). We should think of how women who aren't "keepers of the home" would "discredit the Word of God". What does that mean? I contend that it's totally possible for women to work outside the home AND be homemakers. If she can't "keep her home", then she probably needs to rearrange her priorities. Family is to be the priority for men AND women, regardless of where they work. So a blanket statement that staying at home "is God's design", which is the same as calling NOT staying at home sin…it does far more harm than good in the body of Christ. I do not in ANY way deny the authority of scripture. I don't agree with a LOT of the commentors on MPT's post. But isn't a call to examine the Lord's will for our lives individually, by examining scripture and in prayer, far better than holding up a legalistic standard for all women? I'm not sure you (collectively, not just you Sara Mae) realize the damage this does, how very hurtful it is.
@Mama Llama – Thank you for responding. I suggest we agree to disagree on this. And one more thing… I clicked through to your blog. Your kids are ADORABLE. That we can agree on for sure. Best of luck with your new ministry in DC. :)
@MainlineMom- Thank you. And I agree.
@Sarah Mae – Here's the passage in Titus for those who may be unfamiliar…
3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good.4 Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self‑controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.
I manage to not slander, not be an alcoholic, teach what is good (to my children and other women), love my husband and my children, exercise self-control and purity, make a home (which both my husband and I agree is going on in our house), be nice and kind and submit to my husband all while having an out of the home job. I don't believe that living out Titus 2 and holding an out of the home job are mutually exclusive. Come visit me and my husband and my amazing kids in Detroit. You'd see! ;)
Oh, and I also don't I believe that I, or other working moms, are blasphemers. Not about this anyway.
I would be interested to hear what everyone has to say about the role of married women without children as well… :-)
I'd be really interested in how single moms fit in too. Especially never-married single moms.
I would love to be a sahm. Right now, I am, and have been blessed to be able to, but my situation is unusual. And I likely will be going to work, altho I don't think it is ideal.
I read Matthew's article – and many of the comments. Scripture is counter cultural – period. Seems to be my "theme" these days – countercultural, that is…
I love his references to the OT families who decidedly, obviously stepped outside of God's plan and made a HUGE muck of things – and God graciously STILL followed through on His Word. =) Of COURSE that's why their stories are there for us – we're the same way – we step outside of God's plan for our lives and find chaos and despair – only to have God fulfill HIS PLANS for our lives in the end…
It breaks my heart to see the "Bible=allegory" or the understanding the (essentially) historical cultural stances = God's design in Scripture. Where humankind made their own rules – without consulting God's – oppression, abuse, murder, adultery, neglect, and rebellion occurred.
As to the actual understanding of Scripture about a man's role and a woman's role, culture has so perverted the idea, and society has so undermined God's plan for family – that ANYTHING that disagrees or conflicts with the ideas and ideals of the world is poo-pooh'd as irrelevant, useless, and even prohibitive where women are concerned.
Can't wait to read more of what God is speaking to you.
.-= Debbie´s last blog ..Saturday Link Love -8211 Great Stuff to Read =-.
I've never posted here before, but this conversation really interests me. Some would consider me liberal, but I try to interpret the Bible as a whole in context instead of taking out individual verses. My thoughts are along the same lines as Nicole and Mainline Mom. I don't think we need to overlook the entire context of Titus 2. I like that Mainline Mom pointed out the slavery issue that is addressed. How does that fit into today's culture? Surely we aren't taking a stance that slaves should remain in slavery to honor God. Could it be that Paul was addressing the norms of the culture and how to honor God within their current position?
Alyson and Mainline Mom – I have to address the slavery issue…it was not slavery as we think of today. For example, if someone stole something from you, they could be sentenced to be your slave for an amount of time – that is the biblical meaning of slavery during that time (at least that's what my atheist professor taught me in my religion class at Penn State!).
Oh, and as for cultural, the way God set up family and roles is not cultural – it begins in Genesis, pre-fall, and goes through the New Testament. I'll expound in later posts. :)
Is there a better way to describe the different shades of theology than "liberal" or "conservative?" I love John Piper and Matthew Paul Turner! Both make me think, make me want to know God more deeply and sometimes annoy me. "Liberal" and "conservative" tend to bring out knee jerk reactions in people.
Sandy, I agree, I'm just not sure what terms to use, so I just default to liberal and conservative!
Sara Mae – I am an avid follower of your blog, and I cannot wait to see your response to your next post about this subject. I love that you love the truth, and your approach to seeking His truth in the purest form really inspires me. I am expecting my first baby in October and plan on staying home with her. This is decision has been questioned by many people in my life, but I know that it is what the Lord is asking of me. Thank you for stepping out in your faith and addressing such a controversial issue!
.-= Marianne´s last blog ..Completing Him Challenge 2 – Until Death Do Us Part =-.
Girl, you sure do know how to open a can of worms, don't you? ;)
.-= Ashleigh (Heart and Home)´s last blog ..It Was Just An Idea Of Germany Part Two =-.
Sarah Mae,
You girls are fast…I can't keep up with the discussion. I'm 2 posts behind:) Before I leave this discussion I need to add to your slavery description. While that was one type of slave, that did not include all slavery. (I deferred to my pastor husband on this one.)
"Slaves were sometimes born into slavery, but more often they were either captured in war, kidnapped by slave traders, or sold into slavery to pay off a debt. Slaves would be owned by a family and could be sold. Their living conditions largely depended upon their jobs. Slaves could be physicians, architects, craftspeople, shopkeepers, cooks, barbers, teachers, etc. although most were basic laborers. A teacher (often a slave) would be given fairly decent living quarters, a manual labor might not be. Slaves could be beaten or mistreated, and while this may make the owner look bad in the eyes of other citizens, it was not against the law. Some estimates say that slaves made up as much as 1/3 of the Roman population. Slavery in the Roman world was not based upon race, nor were slaves segregated from the rest of the population. As a result, there wasn’t really a slave culture. A slave who was a physician would have little in common with a slave who made bricks. A slave and a freeman may work side by side – the difference being one would get paid and go home to his family, the other would not. While most slaves were never freed, manumission was considered a fair reward for a deserving slave and happened more in ancient Rome than in other slave societies."
The source for all of this is J. A. Harrill, “Slavery” Dictionary of New Testament Background ( Downers Grove , IL : InterVarsity, 2000), 1124-1126.
I do not believe the way God set up the family is cultural. I am simply addressing the topic of women not working outside of the home in reference to Titus 2. I simply don't see that passage as a basis for declaring it a sin to work outside the home. I wonder what would happen to our society if every Christian woman left the workforce. I have been home with my kids for 6 years, but this past year I began tutoring in the public schools a few hours a week. Those kids need love and they need acceptance and they need to see Christ in someone. If it doesn't come from Christians, who will it come from? Our children, and therefore society as a whole, would suffer greatly if there were no Christian women teaching them.
.-= Alyson´s last blog ..Our Hideaway =-.
Alyson – excellent info on slavery – thank you! Also, I never said it was a sin to work outside the home, I am saying that a woman's primary focus is to her husband and family in the home, and therefore we should not be seeking "careers" outside the home. I mentioned it *may* be sin to make our primary focus a career, because of the last sentence in the verse – I don't know enough to expound on that…I may never. :)
I wasn't planning to continue on with this discussion because it's wearing thin. But, Sarah, I have to ask you a question about your last comment as it really, really bothered me.
You wrote: "I am saying that a woman’s primary focus is to her husband and family in the home, and therefore we should not be seeking “careers” outside the home. I mentioned it *may* be sin to make our primary focus a career (which, it is if you work 8 hours/day outside the home)"
If I am reading correctly you are stating that because I have a career which has me outside the home for 8hrs/per day I am not keeping my family a priority (or in your words a "primary focus") and am therefor living in sin?
That bothers me because I feel like it is presumptuous considering that you have never asked what I do for a living, where I work, what my husband does or how he feels about this, how my children have adjusted (or who they are for that matter), how my work impacts my family, what type of prayer went into our decision for me to work, why I'm no longer a SAHM (which I was for over 2 years), or a million other questions that I would love to have asked before someone judges me or any other mom.
Just a thought…
Nicole – I am not saying it is sin – I have no idea if it is or isn't, I was simply implying that it *could* be, again, when it comes to the line that verse (after the exhorting of women) that the Word of God be not reviled. Also, I would submit in humility that if a woman is working outside the home in a full-time job she cannot (in probable reality) be managing her home and family well to the glory of God (because it is His God-breathed Words that call women to be 'homemakers,' not mine). I think, if I read correctly, your husband stays home with your children? I can't remember…either way, God did not tell men to be homemakers, he gave that role to women, specifically. He made us, pre-fall, to be helpers to our husbands and then to carry and nurture life, and then train our children up in the Lord. Unless you are working with your family, I cannot see how what you do is a question I need to ask (no matter what ministry it is). Our primary ministry should be home-based (not always in the home, but home-based).
Here's the thing…I'm not saying women can't work outside the home – scripture does not forbid it. What I am saying is that women are told to be homemakers. Why do we make it so complicated? You are not taking issue with my words, you are taking issue with God's words. Why would he call women to be homemakers if that is not what He meant? Why wouldn't He say, "men are to be homemakers alongside their wives"? He didn't.
I realize the conversation is wearing thin, but I have a lot more to say on it so I'm going to. We need to understand the terms "keeper at home" and we need to talking about God's Word, and what is culturally relevant, and we need to talk about the implications of following it or not. It, as well as many other issues, are important…so important. We can't let them slide do the relativism that is so prevalent in churches today, "I feel led" or "you do what's right for your family and I'll do what's right for mine."
Now, as always, I want to qualify everything I'm saying by adding, 1.) circumstances vary and sin cannot be escaped here on earth, and 2.) I believe we should be able to have these conversations and still love one another and not judge each other. No matter how strong my convictions, I respect you and others who disagree. 3.) none of what I'm saying has to do with salvation or trumps grace – GRACE! So so good, so thankful for it!
Nicole, I'd love to read your story – is it on your blog?
Oh sweet, sweet Sarah…thank you. I have been challenged and stretched so much from reading your posts and comments as well as matthew's and jessica's.
I have been a SAHM for 6 years but am now looking for a job outside of our home that would support our family. My husband would then freelance from home and take care of our 3 yr old while I am at work if this scenario happens. Why the role reversal? It may be that has to be done. We will be close to being homeless soon if one of us does not find a job.
I do have a question about this statement.
"I am saying that a woman’s primary focus is to her husband and family in the home, and therefore we should not be seeking “careers” outside the home. I mentioned it *may* be sin to make our primary focus a career (which, it is if you work 8 hours/day outside the home), because of the last sentence in the verse"
What if the reason to work 8 hours a day outside the home is to honor your husband and children? What if it is to feed them? To do what your husband asks you to do? What if your primary focus really isn't your career but having a job to provide for your families basic needs? I and do not mean extras…I mean basic?
Please know my tone is very gentle and non confrontational when asking these questions. :-)
Angela – I know you are speaking in gentleness, and I'm so thankful for you! As I've stated before (but I think I need to make more emphatically clear) that there are different circumstances that arise that we have to live out of – that's reality. God's grace is so good and so all encompassing, isn't it? Also, everything I'm talking about is not a salvation issue. When we are His, we are His, period. :)
Girls – I think this issue is going to come down to how you interpret "busy at home". It seems that those 3 words have been used to exclude every other kind of work. When I read Titus 2 I see Paul's instructions to all people to live a self controlled life where God has placed you to bring others to him. I do not think it is a mandate for women to only be at home any more than it is for slaves to stay in slavery. We cannot simply focus on one part of the chapter and assume the rest is cultural. Sarah Mae, I respect your thoughts and what you have taken on for your family and I'm sure it is best for your circumstances. Angela and Nicole, I applaud you for following God in caring for your family in the way you feel you're called. Blessings sisters!
.-= Alyson´s last blog ..Our Hideaway =-.
Sarah, yes my husband stays home and as such we are both outside the will of God it would appear. Anyway, There are several very good reasons that we have made this decision for our family (and this is a decision that did not come lightly and was bathed in prayer). One of the many reasons that this is the right choice for us is that he is better able to care for our autistic son (there are many reasons that is the case) and my employer was far better able to medically insure my son. Again, that is one of the many reasons this is right for us. And I'm not going to list the rest as I'm not sure it matters for this discussion.
No, my story is not on my blog. At least not yet.
Nicole, I sincerely cannot wait to read it (I love hearing the "whys" behind people's stories because not only do I understand them better, I am usually stretched and challenged – and that is good!)! Also, let me ask you this (out of curiosity) if your husband was able to work and be medically insured and you could stay home, would you? See, women who literally have to work, well, have to work! I'll say it again, this is not a salvation issue or an "I love Jesus more" issue. This is a biblical issue (IMO). We seek the goal, but it doesn't always happen.
This almost seems like a silly discussion to have between bloggers to me. So it's okay to work IN the home on things unrelated to the home as long as we're actually home, but it's not okay to work outside of the home?!
FWIW, I work full time — more than full time most weeks — AT HOME. My husband is a stay-at-home dad. We homeschool our children. We believe 100% that we are exactly where God would have us be. I can't see a single biblical command that I'm disobeying, and the doors He's opened as He's led us down this path seem to confirm that we're following the Holy Spirit's leading.
Is it different? Yep. Are my kids the luckiest kids on earth? Pretty sure they are.
So what's the difference? For me, I wouldn't want to work outside the home. I like being there when someone falls down, hearing the baby say "Mamamamama" for the first time and, yeah, being able to sleep in after a rough night. Technically, I'm home, 24 hours a day, 6.5 days a week.
So am I outside of God's plan because I am supporting our family? Inside of God's plan because I'm technically still home?
It seems awfully presumptuous to me to assume that a woman can't be working and in God's will.
.-= Mandi @ Organizing Your Way´s last blog ..Being Content With Our Homes- Part 2 =-.
Mandi, I think I need to shout from the rooftops something that people keep missing…
I never said women can't work outside the home. I have stated God's Word in regard to His idea for women – that we are to be homemakers. He does not call men to be homemakers, ever. Therefore, women cannot work a full-time job outside the home and still be a 'keeper of the home." Otherwise, God wouldn't have put it in His Word. Again, His idea, not mine.
Also, clearly I haven't made this clear enough: GRACE trumps all circumstances! Some women have to work. Life is complicated, I know, more importantly, God knows! But we still seek after the goal. And again, 'biblical womanhood' is not a salvation issue.
And because I just read your latest response to Nicole, I have a couple questions:
"We can’t let them slide do the relativism that is so prevalent in churches today, “I feel led” or “you do what’s right for your family and I’ll do what’s right for mine.”
So do you not believe in the leading of the Holy Spirit? Because there's no biblical commands about where you should live or when you should take your child to the doctor, but we follow His leading in all of those things, so why would we not follow His leading in decisions about work & finances as well?
And I don't think anyone has addressed the issue that the verse being quoted uses the Greek word oikodespoteō, the definition of which is:
1) to be master (or head) of a house
2) to rule a household, manage family affairs
We'll assume that you don't think it refers to the first definition (and FWIW, we don't either…my husband is the head of our household), but where does the second definition say you have to be at home to manage your family affairs?
.-= Mandi @ Organizing Your Way´s last blog ..Being Content With Our Homes- Part 2 =-.
Mandi, I will be going over the exegesis in another post.
But aside from exegesis, I wish people would step back and look at the big picture. God lays out so beautifully His plan for women and men and families. He made women to be their husbands helper. He gave them a body, unique from a man's, that grew and nurtured life. Why, why would God intend for us to not only have to manage our homes, nurture the babies, and take on a full-time job outside the home, enduring man's curse?
The Holy Spirit does not go against God's Word, so *if* it is clearly laid out in the Word, it's important.
I'm not sure I follow this part:
"He does not call men to be homemakers, ever. Therefore, women cannot work a full-time job outside the home and still be a ‘keeper of the home.”
Just because we're called to be homemakers, why does that mean we can't work outside of the home? Does that apply to volunteering at our kids' schools or our husbands' churches? Is there a limit to the number of hours outside of the home that counts as okay or not okay? (I'm asking tongue-in-cheek because I know you're not going to give me a number…but if there is a biblical ideal laid out apart from following the leading of the Holy Spirit, are there answers to these questions?)
I think this is the part I disagree most with:
"Also, clearly I haven’t made this clear enough: GRACE trumps all circumstances! Some women have to work."
We chose for me to work (again, at home, but I'm not sure that matters) and for my husband to stay home. It gives us unprecedented flexibility to experience life with our girls rather than being tethered to a job. I'm passionate about my work, and we've been given an incredible opportunity. For us, there are no downsides.
I don't think I need grace in this area. In a million other parts of my life, yes, absolutely. But in this one? I believe that I'm in the will of God.
And I DO agree with you about God giving us a body to nurture our babies (just so you don't think I'm being purposefully argumentative here…), but I also have to wonder if husbands working a bazillion hours outside of the home so that their wives can stay home doesn't go against God's plan also, since boys and young men desperately need the presence and influence of their dads and today's culture no longer allows for the type of mentoring and apprenticeship that happened in biblical times.
I'm sorry if my first post came across as argumentative. I disagree with you, but I'm enjoying the conversation, not trying to start a fight.
.-= Mandi @ Organizing Your Way´s last blog ..Being Content With Our Homes- Part 2 =-.
Mandi, again, to this question, "why does that mean we can’t work outside of the home?" In a FULL-TIME JOB! :) No, I can't give you hours, THAT would be legalistic, and THAT is where the Holy Spirit must come in. I gave the example of 8 hours a day to make a point – you couldn't work two full-time jobs at the same time and do them both well, right? Oh, and I don't think husbands need to work outside the home, I just said they aren't called to be homemakers, that is reserved for women. Many men work from home. I think that's awesome!
I love how you challenge me because it keeps me on my toes and in the Word of God! :)
I love reading views that don't agree with me (particularly if they're well-said…most people aren't good at that regardless of what they're saying) because like you said, it sharpens me and gets me thinking. While I don't anticipate the roots of my faith ever changing, I know that the fruit will be sweeter when it's refined (wow, that's quite the mixed metaphor!).
As far as response to that article, I agree that the Bible doesn't provide THE model in any of those examples. However, it's very specific in what the wife is called to first and foremost (Titus 2). Can that be done while working outside the home 40+ hours a week? That's the question each couple needs to ask. I know that I work 40 hours a week as a single woman and I have a hard time keeping the house clean, laundry done, and food prepared and that's just for ME not a husband and children (and that doesn't include the obvious relationship-building and character-building necessary in marriage and motherhood respectively).
I meant to add, I look forward to all those posts!
Wow, Sarah Mae! This will be huge! May the Lord open His Word and His heart to you… and let us all get to thinking about what His Word really says! Love you as always!
I saw it :) I got it. My favorite part of all the post/comments? The part where you remind us that this is NOT a salvation issue.
Why can't my working a job outside of my house be considered caring for my home and family? Is this a case of choking on gnats and swallowing camels? What good is being a SAHM if you are not doing it cheerfully and to honor God but to impress judgemental people?
Hi Sarah,
Before I begin my response, I believe it is important that I describe myself. Married, Pregnant with my first child, Christian, Conservative, 28 years old, Attorney, Federal Agent, Business Consultant, Christian Clothing company owner (www.seraph7.com), Exceptionally outspoken, and Absolutely Adorable (at least that’s what my husband says =)) practically sums me up!. As above described person, I wanted to let you know that I love your blog. When I read it, I am encouraged. I am truly looking forward to your responses to Piper. I have prayed that you will continue to speak what's on your heart, continue to have an open discussion on your blog, and that you will not become discouraged.
Until His Trumpet Blows,
Amina